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Post by Jayne Anastasia on Oct 20, 2012 19:43:43 GMT -8
So what do you all think?!   What do we have left to clear up? I discussed a little on Twitter about how I was still unsure of Mary's murderer and how that situation actually played out. I certainly would like to see more about this. Then there is the whole Greek Fire thing...looks like that is going to be a major part of the episode.. So just who do we think is knocking at Corky's door?! |
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Post by copperheadno1274 on Oct 21, 2012 4:19:58 GMT -8
We've got a few issues left to sort themselves out (unless it's decided to leave the issue unresolved going into Season 2):
1. Who killed Mary? Doubtful it was Francis, more likely that it was just a semi-random brutal slaying for someone who had it in for Mdm Grendel.
2. Not sure exactly how they'll resolve the Greek Fire issue, though I'm pretty certain that whatever ending Mr. Kennedy is facing will be a right painful one.
3. So, Ellen's alive - and that's great(?) - but let's face it, she's clearly broken. Strung out and coming off the junk, plus the added weight of the following questions:
- Francis?
- You killed your own daughter, woman - accident or no, that's going to leave a bruise on your psyche, which leads me back to
- Francis?? REALLY??? Have you no shame, woman?
3a. At some point, there'll be a conversation between Ellen and Eva - and won't THAT be interesting? From what I can see so far, I'm almost willing to bet that Eva has the upper hand in the whole exchange. Let's be honest, Copperheads - Ellen DID sort of make her own bed here, metaphorically speaking.
4. Dr. Freeman & his wife, & their impending spawn. (Cue ominous, 'Jaws'-type music here.) My prediction is that there'll be complications during the pregnancy, or more likely, the birth, that will take the life of either mother OR child. This, in turn, is going to cause Freeman to spin downwards into a sort of crazed, devil-may-care attitude.
5. Maguire's misfortunes with Corcoran aren't over. Sure, Kevin didn't kill him in S01E09, but now he's got to actually live with that guilt of what he's done, and the fact that he and Corcoran work together will be a constant reminder of what he's done, of the family that he's shattered.
5a. Was divorce something that happened in 1864 New York? We might have to investigate this with @boweryboys on Twitter. Just a thought..
6. In her own way, the Widow Haverford has looser morals than any of the other women on the show - including Eva and Ellen. I think, honestly, if there's a femme fatale of the series so far, it's going to be her. And wouldn't a conversation between Ellen & the Widow Haverford (what IS her first name, anyway?) be just as interesting? Remember, Kevin's been getting around..
6a. The Widow Haverford's name is Elizabeth, it turns out. I was completely unaware, what with the blase attitude about being widowed and sending the child off with the molester and falling into bed with Corcoran AND Morehouse and whatever else she's done..
6b. Is it me, or is Elizabeth Haverford pretty much the slut of the show? And this is in a show that heavily features a bordello and its inhabitants, including..
7. Annie. Ohhhhh, Jesus God Almighty, child, what is wrong with you? If there's a standout actor in the show so far, I honestly think it's Kiara Glasco for portraying the complicated young woman. I.. I don't even want to touch on the character yet cos it's not even 8:30 and I've barely finished breakfast.
What's everyone else's thoughts, going into the season finale?
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Post by Jayne Anastasia on Oct 22, 2012 15:37:37 GMT -8
Hey Dave!! LOVED all of your thoughts on this!! I actually had something typed up and then I kept losing my wifi signal last night and wasn't able to get it posted. Now that we've seen the episode, it's even a bit MORE interesting, the points that you brought up!! First of all, I'd like to say how much I love the way that the end of the season was handled. Basically the storylines were tied up..there are a couple of things that you wonder what will happen next, but it didn't really leave you hanging, just anticipating the next chapter. They did though, open the door for at least a couple of possible new(er) storylines...Kevin's drug use and Elizabeth's connections and loyalties. All in all, a very satisfying ending to a superb season!! In reply to Dave... 1. I was in the same boat as you..didn't really think that it was Francis who killed Mary. He didn't really grieve too much and maybe that should have been a clue, but he was so shell shocked at that point. To be honest..I still questioned him telling the truth when he confessed..maybe he's still covering for someone and thought he should take it to the grave.. The only way Kevin can not punish him for the murders is if it was to be somehow justified..I suppose blackmailing could be cause, but for murder? Really want to see how this plays out. As I said..still confused. 2. The whole Greek fire issue...saved the town but Mr. Kennedy lives to see another day..and his connection with Elizabeth..she was working with him, but not to the degree I had originally thought upon first viewing. First time through I was a bit blindsided by it all and I thought that she was in the center of it all. Later realizing that she didn't expect it to be to the degree it was. She needs to learn that commiseration with any force during a time of war will lead to greater consequences than anticipated. Still not sure on where I stand with her...realize now that CopperTV was really spoiling us with their posts about 'Would you trust her" to her reply to Robert...almost dragging us to the conclusion that there is something going on that doesn't meet the eye. Shame on them!!  3. Ellen. Where to go with this one. First off, I was quite surprised in the previous episode when Corky came back and sent Eva and Annie out and confronted Ellen. Was he NOT shocked that she was sitting up, talking, pretty lucid and in a much more normal state than when he had left? The only times we saw him with her, she was bedridden. Ok, I know stuff goes on in their lives that we don't see, but I found it amusing that Corky bursts in and expects to have a rational conversation with her when all he's got up to that point is gibberish.  As for the situation with Francis...well, truthfully, I can see it. I'm sure she wasn't the only war wife who was left (on either side) and didn't know if her man was dead or alive..that suffered and gave in to comfort when it presented itself. Even Francis' truth of throwing Eva in Corky's face is point in fact. Same situation actually. But, it was more allowable back then for men to have relations with other women, particulary if they were in a brothel and it was legal. The worst of the cheating part is that it was Francis..Corky's "brother for life". Anyone else and this might be playing out differently. Course then you have to throw in the pregnancy, which although taken care of, left it's scars, physically and mentally. Ellen WAS actually sick, physically from the procedure, and mentally/emotionally as she mourned the loss and the brutality said loss of her/their child. Her actions towards Maggie were clouded and confused...she honestly didn't know what she was doing when she shoved her. Maggie's death was an accident pure and simple. But that doesn't remove the guilt over the loss of another life, her beautiful child and the only connection she still had to Corky. No wonder Francis had to have her committed..granted, she needed to grieve and try and move on, but Francis on his own would not be able, so he did what he could for her...and tried to put it behind him. I still remember his telling words to Corky in the office when they argued over his engagement to Mary.. a lot of things changed since you were gone. 3a. Pretty much spot on with this one..there wasn't much conversation between Eva and Ellen, but it did take place..and although Eva had the upper hand, she showed compassion (for Corky's sake) and also realized her place "She is Corky's wife." Ellen knows what she did, and has faced it. She understands and seems resigned to whatever befalls her. She can't blame Corky for being with Eva if/when she finds out (betting of course that she does)..so it's kind of a mutual understanding between them that they have this man in common that they both love and yet know their place as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out more. Other than that Molly thing, Eva has proved to be a very stand up character. Well, I guess one flaw isn't too bad, right?!  4. The Freemans...LOVE them! Matthew was SO calm and gentle with Sara when he found her in the house. He was forgiving too..and his love for her "I will find your mother"...he will do whatever he needs for his woman. Best part of course, was takin' care of the snake charmer... Go Doc!!! I really hope that things work out for them, that they are able to have the baby and be safe. Oh sure, I know there will be drama, but glad to see it didn't play out badly for the finale! 5. As for McGuire's future...will be interesting to see. So many ways it can go..I'm thinking that he and Corky return to a strained working relationship and that maybe they are able to get past things. I keep thinking 'bros before hoes" but not sure that's applicable here. It's just that sometimes people ARE able to move on and repair their relationships. Of course, aside from the repaired relationship, Francis still has to recover from his wounds AND then see if there will be a punishment for his murder crimes...if that's what they end up being. 5a. Divorce during that time..good question! I think we should address Bowery Boys with that one..could provide some interesting reasoning. 6. I am SO on the fence concerning Elizabeth, her motives, her love life..everything!! She was obviously attracted to Corky..his angry behavior towards her would have scared me into being too nervous to be around him, she is a lady afterall... BUT did you catch the comment with Robert about being poor? I'm wondering her back story..she's from England, but maybe she was a poser..maybe she married for the money..she's educated though..maybe a previous husband was a scoundrel and left her destitute. Don't know, but something is happening there. And no denying her ways..she does seem to get around, she knows all the "right' people and isn't afraid to be forward with them (for her being a lady and all)..This was why I thought her and Robert made a good match.. wily and witty but when push came to shove, they had good hearts for what was right. Not sure where I stand with her now going into season 2. 6a. LOLOL!! Yes, Elizabeth. ;D 6b. I think I kinda covered that in #6...but yeah, she has tendencies that make her seem not such a "lady" 7. Annie...what can we say about Annie. I really like her. But I don't like her creepiness..I LOVE that Eva told her straight up the truth (sounds like experience) and hopefully her infatuaton with Corky will just grow to pure love as a child. She and Corky are good together, in their child/parent roles. I melt whenever he calls her "child" and talks to her in a soft, caring voice. The girl has been though so much and for all intents and purposes physically is a woman, no wonder she fell for him..but she isn't mature emotionally, at least not enough..and she is damaged. I like the gang of her, Eva and Corky together..but I don't like what COULD come out of that..jealously, murder..you catch my drift.  Well, that's my thoughts for the moment...so much spinning around in my head still so far..trying to absorb it all. Will continue to comment as things come around.  |
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Post by amieam on Oct 23, 2012 4:12:32 GMT -8
First of all I don't think that Francis will be punished for killing Mary and her sister. It seems like nobody was interested in solving those cases except Corky, and that was just because of what Francis did to him. I think next season will have alot of Corky and Francis trying to rebuild a friendship. Maybe O'Brien will be the bridge between the two of them.
I think Corky is going to find out really quick that he and Ellen no longer suit. Ellen and Francis really do make a better pair. She's quiet and sweet and needs someone to take care of her. Francis needs somebody to take care of. Corky needs a woman that can stand up to him and is more of a partner. Eva is the better match for Corky, but the whole business with Molly is going to have to come out. I don't know about Morehouse and Elizabeth. I have a feeling she is using him. It will be interesting to see if her friendship with John Wilkes Booth appears in season 2.
Annie! I still just don't know what to think about her.
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Post by Jayne Anastasia on Oct 24, 2012 14:25:32 GMT -8
Great thoughts Ami! Interesting about O'Brien being a bridge..he did seem quite shocked when Francis admitted to the killings, but maybe he can get past that too, for the same reasons as you mentioned about no one else really seeming to care.
As for Ellen and Corky, I was wondering how their life before was. I agree that her and Francis seem to be a better match, but mainly because I haven't had the chance to see Corky really act like he loved someone..I've only seen some attraction and then lust from him, not love. I believe that Francis did/does love Molly...BUT I'm not sure that he still loves Ellen. For some people that seems to be a given, but I can't help but feel that some of his actions are out of guilt. Him taking her flowers didn't totally indicate to me that he still loved her. He was desperately trying to move on with his life..because he was ready to or because he wanted to cover his tracks for Corky, I'm not positive, but I get the feeling he really was over Ellen (or didn't ever think they could have a life together now because of her condition/and or because of Corky) and he truly did love Molly. He SO wanted a normal life..a wife, maybe a farm. I actually am really sympathetic to his character... gee, can ya tell?!! ;D
I think the situation with Eva and Molly will not come out for quite some time..It won't sit well, no matter and I don't know how she can be excused for it... so unless she confesses to Corky and he keeps his mouth shut.. He did say they were they same.. Eva said if she was Corky, she would have cut Elizabeth's throat and he agreed.. They have an interesting dynamic.
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Post by copperheadno1274 on Oct 24, 2012 15:07:52 GMT -8
So, this is now pushing 4 nights after the season finale. We've all watched it, at least once, and it's set in a little bit more now. Grab a scorecard, kids - this is going to look like a 17-inning game, I'm sure.
Beginning at the end of the episode for a brief moment: mixed feelings about Kevin using the needle to forget his pain. Everyone has a breaking point, I'm sure - and Lord knows, Kevin's had enough dumped on him by this point - I'm just curious to see where this goes.
Francis killing Mary: This is a hell of a hole card for Kevin to hold, and quite probably his most valuable. As Michael Corleone learned from his father, 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.' I also agree with Ami's thought that O'Brien will help mend whatever friendship they've got left, but that also leads me to...
Kevin & Eva? Kevin & Ellen?: To sort of follow up on something Ami said above in her post, I'm working under the impression that Eva's basically letting Kevin go - or did I interpret that whole scene incorrectly? Still waiting on word from @boweryboys re: divorce prevalence in 1864 NYC via Twitter. I'm torn btwn Kevin wanting to stay with Ellen/doing the 'right' thing and leaving her, or letting her be with Francis/etc.
In other words: if Kevin leaves Ellen and/or lets Francis have her, that will utterly fracture whatever shred of a friendship/brotherhood/bond these two have left.
The Family Morehouse: with Dad's impending shipment down to Hot 'Lanta and general loss of station/standing/money/etc., I see the Major actually stepping up and permaybehaps taking more of a say in the general affairs. I don't think we're going to see much of the devil-may-care, fake-leg-out-the-window Major Morehouse from here on. Robert's going to have to grow up, since he's the man of the house, which means..
Widow Haverford: Look, let's not forget, this woman was WIDOWED in the second episode of the series. Clearly, the man was pond scum, and not worth any mourning, but still - this isn't how a woman of polite society (and isn't she that, living uptown?) would have behaved, I don't think. I don't know. Maybe it IS how she'd have behaved. I will say this, though: if Morehouse becomes the fine, upstanding citizen instead of the raconteur he's been playing at this season, I predict Elizabeth will latch onto him like a tick. Whether or not that's a good thing, for a woman with clear Confederate sympathies, remains to be seen.
Doctor & Mrs. Freeman: I'm going to get smacked down for this, I'm sure - and keep in mind, I LOVE these two characters - but I thought the first part of that storyline (Sara going out and buying a couple bottles and downing both of them) was kind of contrived. Since I'm suspending disbelief (cos it's a TV show and these people aren't real), I will follow it up by saying that Doctor Freeman's actions with the snake-oil salesman were topnotch, and I want to see more. I'm also renewing my statement that there's going to be some sort of tragedy that will befall the young couple when it's baby time. And finally...
Annie: LOVED the "knock off the bullshit" line from Eva. I'm guessing that it's just the proper amount of 'toughlove' that child needs to straighten up and fly right. Here's to hoping, anyway.
Anything else I missed?
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Post by copperheadno1274 on Oct 24, 2012 15:54:55 GMT -8
Just received the following tweet from @boweryboys re: divorce: @daveromigh @coppertv NY had strict divorce laws, quite rare, but enough that Horace Greeley decried them in 1860 t.co/q99LvbY8.. So, I'll leave it up for speculation btwn now and mid-2013 for whether or not Kevin divorces Ellen. Also, we never did find out who was knocking at the door at the end of the penultimate episode, did we? |
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Post by Jayne Anastasia on Oct 24, 2012 17:03:14 GMT -8
Ooo..interesting!! Another thing that I hadn't taken into consideration, although it is a major point... is that they are Catholic..and the Catholic church didn't really go for divorce. Kevin said he hadn't been in a church, or was it to confession, for a very long time..but just like the thought he had about Francis, that the doctrine is embedded into you from a young age and stays with you.. Kevin may have strong thoughts about divorce, as well as what to think of Ellen's ideas concerning divorce which I image are very much along church lines. As for who was knocking at the door, it was Robert..coming to tell Kevin of the Greek Fire raid. |
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Post by amieam on Oct 25, 2012 4:10:06 GMT -8
What if Ellen was declared insane? Would Kevin be able to get an annulment in the Catholic Church? I agree that Francis is/was in love with Molly and probably includes her in the people he killed when he loves them. They had gotten engaged and then he believes she kills herself. I don't think Francis is in love with Ellen now, but to me they seemed like a better match than Corky and Ellen. Corky needs a women that will stand up to him. I still don't know what to think about Elizabeth. I really think that she will end up breaking Robert's heart. The perfect couple on the show is O'Brien and Sybil! She knows how to handle her man!! LOL  |
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Post by Jayne Anastasia on Oct 25, 2012 11:38:50 GMT -8
Oh YES!! For sure!!! O'Brien and Sybil have to be the top!! I love how she is with him, and he with her...they get after each other, yet protect and show love..they are wonderful together...would love to have more scenes with them as we need more than just Matthew and Sara's "normal" relationship..mainly because we know that their's is going to endure some drama because that's how the show is! One good, strong marriage needs to be shown!! I hadn't thought about an annulment, but that could be a possibility too..hard to see Kevin walking away from her though under those conditions...he would be more apt to divorce a sane woman than walk away from one who was mentally troubled..as in needed care. But he does surprise us sometimes with his choices. Thanks for bringing up the thought that Francis probably considers himself the responsible for Molly's death as well, due to it being a suicide. One thing he has to bear that really was not his own doing. My sympathy factor just keeps going up... Sigh.  THANKS everyone, for the lovely discussion!! Hope you are enjoying and we will be able to continue having fun!!! ;D ;D |
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As for the situation with Francis...well, truthfully, I can see it. I'm sure she wasn't the only war wife who was left (on either side) and didn't know if her man was dead or alive..that suffered and gave in to comfort when it presented itself. Even Francis' truth of throwing Eva in Corky's face is point in fact. Same situation actually. But, it was more allowable back then for men to have relations with other women, particulary if they were in a brothel and it was legal. The worst of the cheating part is that it was Francis..Corky's "brother for life". Anyone else and this might be playing out differently. Course then you have to throw in the pregnancy, which although taken care of, left it's scars, physically and mentally. Ellen WAS actually sick, physically from the procedure, and mentally/emotionally as she mourned the loss and the brutality said loss of her/their child. Her actions towards Maggie were clouded and confused...she honestly didn't know what she was doing when she shoved her. Maggie's death was an accident pure and simple. But that doesn't remove the guilt over the loss of another life, her beautiful child and the only connection she still had to Corky. No wonder Francis had to have her committed..granted, she needed to grieve and try and move on, but Francis on his own would not be able, so he did what he could for her...and tried to put it behind him. I still remember his telling words to Corky in the office when they argued over his engagement to Mary.. a lot of things changed since you were gone. 
